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<head><meta charset="utf-8"><title>planning meeting 2020.02.14 · t-compiler · Zulip Chat Archive</title></head>
<h2>Stream: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/index.html">t-compiler</a></h2>
<h3>Topic: <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html">planning meeting 2020.02.14</a></h3>

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<a name="188211716"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188211716" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188211716">(Feb 14 2020 at 14:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="897">@T-compiler/meeting</span> -- planning meeting starts in <strong>about 15 minutes</strong>! The goal here (as a reminder) is to schedule steering meetings (aka design meetings) over the next few weeks. Now's your chance to submit last minute proposals. =)</p>
<p>You can view the <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ameeting-proposal+-label%3Ameeting-scheduled" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ameeting-proposal+-label%3Ameeting-scheduled">list of pending proposals here</a>.</p>
<p>(There are also a few proposals where we <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ameeting-proposal+label%3Ameeting-scheduled+" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&amp;q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3Ameeting-proposal+label%3Ameeting-scheduled+">still need to write up the minutes</a>...)</p>



<a name="188211772"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188211772" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188211772">(Feb 14 2020 at 14:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>/poll Which topics would you most like to discuss in the next few weeks?</p>



<a name="188213526"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213526" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213526">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:03)</a>:</h4>
<p>heh, looking at the description for <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/247" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/247">compiler-team#247</a>, I actually feel <em>better</em> about how I've been running the triage meeting (at least recently)</p>



<a name="188213617"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213617" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213617">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>in terms of, I feel like the existing meetings <em>have</em> been focused on "avoiding disaster", and I've just been feeling crappy that we weren't doing more than that.</p>



<a name="188213662"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213662" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213662">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:04)</a>:</h4>
<p>Hey <span class="user-group-mention" data-user-group-id="897">@T-compiler/meeting</span> -- planning meeting starting now-ish! See poll above.</p>



<a name="188213701"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213701" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213701">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<h1>Announcements</h1>



<a name="188213713"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213713" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213713">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<p>Whilst people persue the above, feel free to leave other announcements here</p>



<a name="188213753"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213753" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213753">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:05)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Happy Valentine's Day! I <span aria-label="heart" class="emoji emoji-2764" role="img" title="heart">:heart:</span> all you wonderful people.</li>
</ul>



<a name="188213825"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213825" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213825">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me needs to go out more... <span aria-label="cold sweat" class="emoji emoji-1f630" role="img" title="cold sweat">:cold_sweat:</span></p>



<a name="188213838"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213838" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213838">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:06)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>Also, emojis are totally broken in my Zulip App right now. So I see this instead:</li>
</ul>
<p><a href="/user_uploads/4715/KlnS5DQXxToTqst3rOM72YKG/pasted_image.png" target="_blank" title="pasted_image.png">pasted image</a> </p>
<div class="message_inline_image"><a href="/user_uploads/4715/KlnS5DQXxToTqst3rOM72YKG/pasted_image.png" target="_blank" title="pasted image"><img src="/user_uploads/4715/KlnS5DQXxToTqst3rOM72YKG/pasted_image.png"></a></div><p>What's up with that.</p>



<a name="188213859"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213859" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213859">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm hoping you see a heart. :)</p>



<a name="188213871"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213871" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213871">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>There's a heart in the web-app</p>



<a name="188213872"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213872" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213872">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:06)</a>:</h4>
<p>yours is almost better</p>



<a name="188213899"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188213899" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188213899">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:07)</a>:</h4>
<p>in terms of my increased brain activity trying to make sense of what that even <em>is</em></p>



<a name="188214028"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214028" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214028">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:08)</a>:</h4>
<p>There's a blog post up for Inside-Rust which explains how to profile rustc using the <code>-Zself-profiler</code> tools. It's probably the most complete tutorial we have at the moment so if that interests you, please check it out and give feedback! <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/516" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/516">https://github.com/rust-lang/blog.rust-lang.org/pull/516</a></p>



<a name="188214100"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214100" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214100">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:09)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116083">pnkfelix</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188213899" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188213899">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>in terms of my increased brain activity trying to make sense of what that even <em>is</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>it seems to me that there is some large bitmap of emoji images, and the app has somehow gotten the mapping of which emoji corresponds to what range of pixels in that bitmap all messed up</p>



<a name="188214122"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214122" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214122">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:09)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g. <a href="/user_uploads/4715/zcT-d1-_rLlWjLtQyflfDt_o/pasted_image.png" target="_blank" title="pasted_image.png">pasted image</a></p>
<div class="message_inline_image"><a href="/user_uploads/4715/zcT-d1-_rLlWjLtQyflfDt_o/pasted_image.png" target="_blank" title="pasted image"><img src="/user_uploads/4715/zcT-d1-_rLlWjLtQyflfDt_o/pasted_image.png"></a></div>



<a name="188214150"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214150" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214150">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:09)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="125250">@Wesley Wiser</span> that's awesome!</p>



<a name="188214209"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214209" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214209">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, let's get started</p>



<a name="188214242"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214242" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214242">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:10)</a>:</h4>
<p>First off, let's discuss which weeks we have available to us</p>



<a name="188214271"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214271" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214271">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>oh good point</p>



<a name="188214275"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214275" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214275">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>/poll Click on a week if you will be <strong>ABSENT OR UNAVAILABLE</strong></p>



<a name="188214294"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214294" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214294">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:11)</a>:</h4>
<p>I made a poll, but the main thing is that I won't be here Feb 21 :)</p>



<a name="188214343"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214343" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214343">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm visiting family that day</p>



<a name="188214353"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214353" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214353">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>But if others want to register their (un)availability, please do so</p>



<a name="188214393"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214393" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214393">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:12)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Of course, I'm fine with people discussing things on Feb 21, I just can't lead or participate, so some topics may be better than others)</p>



<a name="188214447"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214447" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214447">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>Next thing I would say is are these topics in the above list we can <strong>quickly rule out</strong>?</p>



<a name="188214457"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214457" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214457">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:13)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm closing on the purchase of a house on March 6th. I suspect I won't be available during this time slot on that day.</p>



<a name="188214482"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214482" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214482">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>Possible candidates</p>
<ul>
<li>merge llvm.sideeffect change <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177">compiler-team#177</a> </li>
<li>compile time analysis and assistance <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/161" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/161">compiler-team#161</a></li>
</ul>



<a name="188214520"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214520" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214520">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>The llvm.side-effect change has had some recent deveopments</p>



<a name="188214541"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214541" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214541">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well "recent" - we knew of them before, but didn't know we did</p>



<a name="188214548"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214548" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214548">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:14)</a>:</h4>
<p>the sideeffect change seems to be going nowhere; I was hoping the soundness hole would be fully and irrevocably fixed by now.</p>



<a name="188214566"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214566" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214566">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Right, we knew, but we forgot:)</p>



<a name="188214567"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214567" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214567">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>Or something</p>



<a name="188214573"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214573" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214573">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>I can't say I agree with "forgot" personally.</p>



<a name="188214575"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214575" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214575">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="126931">centril</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188214548" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188214548">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>the sideeffect change seems to be going nowhere; I was hoping the soundness hole would be fully and irrevocably fixed by now.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>what? At least data has been gathered</p>



<a name="188214584"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214584" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214584">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>I do think we're making progress, indeed</p>



<a name="188214599"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214599" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214599">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> well we were going to merge it, but then we didn't</p>



<a name="188214600"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214600" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214600">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:15)</a>:</h4>
<p>The question is: would it be fruitful to have a discussion about this? What are the next steps otherwise?</p>



<a name="188214613"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214613" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214613">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>we merged it under a flag, as planned</p>



<a name="188214661"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214661" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214661">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>okay right, this is not venue for this discussion, sorry.</p>



<a name="188214674"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214674" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214674">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, let's just try to decide <em>do we want to talk about this in a design meeting</em></p>



<a name="188214675"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214675" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214675">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think there's not much that needs sync discussion</p>



<a name="188214702"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214702" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214702">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:16)</a>:</h4>
<p>There are certainly thorny questions to answer and design work though</p>



<a name="188214709"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214709" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214709">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well, can I ask what would be under discussion?</p>



<a name="188214729"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214729" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214729">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>I.e. the question of "what are the goals to meet" seems like a question that different people have different answers to</p>



<a name="188214745"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214745" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214745">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p>That's true.</p>



<a name="188214756"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214756" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214756">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:17)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177#issuecomment-578549329" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177#issuecomment-578549329">wrote this</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think the design meeting, or whatever process we choose, is going to primarily have to answer these questions:</p>
<ul>
<li>How much of a compile time hit are we willing to eat in favor of soundness? e.g., the function-local variant of the patch regresses only 3-7%.</li>
<li>Do we want to dedicate developer resources to a global analysis that aims to clean up the side effects we emit at function boundaries? Are we okay with such a global analysis?</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>



<a name="188214824"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214824" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214824">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Meta note, I'm regretting starting with this topic -- maybe we should have started with triage? That had the most votes, and is perhaps easier to figure out</p>



<a name="188214837"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214837" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214837">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe we should table this and schedule triage? :)</p>



<a name="188214844"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214844" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214844">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yes, seems good</p>



<a name="188214851"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214851" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214851">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>And then return to side-effect after that</p>



<a name="188214855"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214855" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214855">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:18)</a>:</h4>
<p>we have 3 slots though; so we can plan all 3 meetings?</p>



<a name="188214875"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214875" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214875">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>(it might be premature to plan some of these meetings.)</p>



<a name="188214881"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214881" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214881">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>(well 4...)</p>



<a name="188214899"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214899" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> Wesley Wiser <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214899">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>Two of the slots have one person unavailable</p>



<a name="188214923"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214923" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214923">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="126931">@centril</span> I meant that we first place the triage meeting, and then return to the question of whether to use one of the 2 remaining slots for side-effect</p>



<a name="188214933"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214933" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214933">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:19)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it's clear that we want to do triage, in particular</p>



<a name="188214940"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214940" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214940">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>aha, ok, sgtm</p>



<a name="188214990"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214990" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214990">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>so the main question is: should we do it on the day when everyone's around, or prefer the week when I am absent :)</p>



<a name="188214994"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188214994" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188214994">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> should definitely be here</p>



<a name="188215005"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215005" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215005">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>28th seems like a good day</p>



<a name="188215016"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215016" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215016">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>I agree.</p>



<a name="188215033"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215033" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215033">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:20)</a>:</h4>
<p>To clarify the proposal, this is about meeting right? Not triage of incoming issues? I felt a bit uncertain</p>



<a name="188215040"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215040" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215040">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>correct</p>



<a name="188215043"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215043" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215043">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>specifically</p>



<a name="188215085"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215085" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215085">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<h2>Proposal</h2>
<p>At the broadest level, discuss the following questions:</p>
<ul>
<li>What are our goals with compiler team triage?</li>
<li>Are we achieving those goals efficiently?</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>



<a name="188215090"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215090" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215090">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>wait... I think I said something wrong here; I think the type system thing would be best on the 28th (in particular to have all the essential people there)</p>



<a name="188215099"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215099" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215099">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:21)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<h2>Hypothesis</h2>
<p>More specifically, we would like feedback on the following hypothesis:</p>
<ul>
<li>
<p>Goal of compiler team triage should be to avoid shipping catastrophic bugs<br>
    * i.e., things that are really embarassing or which will effect a lot of users</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>Goal of compiler team triage is NOT to ensure "overall quality" of the compiler<br>
    * that goal is maintained in a distributed way through reviews<br>
    * but also by the working groups dedicated to a particular feature</p>
</li>
<li>
<p>We should focus triage meeting time on "here is a critical bug that is not being fixed"</p>
</li>
</ul>
</blockquote>



<a name="188215156"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215156" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215156">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>(there are more details in <a href="https://hackmd.io/5theN85oRS6QvyYPZt-vew" target="_blank" title="https://hackmd.io/5theN85oRS6QvyYPZt-vew">the hackmd</a>)</p>



<a name="188215165"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215165" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215165">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="126931">centril</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188215090" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188215090">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>wait... I think I said something wrong here; I think the type system thing would be best on the 28th</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ok yes I misunderstood what you meant :)</p>



<a name="188215184"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215184" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215184">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:22)</a>:</h4>
<p>(fwiw, I think I misspoke :P)</p>



<a name="188215218"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215218" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215218">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't necessarily <em>have</em> to be here for triage meeting, even though I proposed it :)</p>



<a name="188215254"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215254" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215254">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>My suggestion: 1st slot: Triage, 2nd slot: Type system</p>



<a name="188215260"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215260" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215260">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>(to me it feels pressing to figure this kind of stuff out though)</p>



<a name="188215263"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215263" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215263">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:23)</a>:</h4>
<p>3rd: TBD</p>



<a name="188215338"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215338" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215338">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> I got the impression from <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span>'s note that things seem to be going well?</p>



<a name="188215342"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215342" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215342">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>or at least we're doing what we're supposed to</p>



<a name="188215407"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215407" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215407">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:24)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well, I think we're expending more effort than we need to, if these are our goals.</p>



<a name="188215459"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215459" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215459">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I certainly agree that the meeting has trended towards doing what I wrote (which is part of the motivation here)</p>



<a name="188215472"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215472" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215472">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>I am also open to being told I'm mistaken</p>



<a name="188215492"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215492" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215492">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:25)</a>:</h4>
<p>There is a question of whether a design meeting is the right venue to confirm the hypotheses</p>



<a name="188215537"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215537" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215537">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>We maybe should do that over email first... ?</p>



<a name="188215564"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215564" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215564">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>In what way?</p>



<a name="188215585"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215585" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215585">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:26)</a>:</h4>
<p>But yeah I guess there is question of whether to discuss the <em>hypotheses</em> or skip to the conclusions :)</p>



<a name="188215598"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215598" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215598">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., if we agree with those hypotheses, are there implications?</p>



<a name="188215610"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215610" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215610">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>its sort of a question of whether we expect to get involvement from all of, or the right members of, the team</p>



<a name="188215615"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215615" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215615">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>at a synchronous meeting</p>



<a name="188215636"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215636" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215636">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:27)</a>:</h4>
<p>the more targeted design meetings, people can sort of self-select</p>



<a name="188215732"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215732" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215732">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>but this question of "what are the goals of the triage meeting" seems both amorphous, but also the kind of question where we may want/need to get input from everyone</p>



<a name="188215740"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215740" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215740">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>("go around the room", so to speak...)</p>



<a name="188215756"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215756" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215756">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>Makes sense. I'm open to suggestions =) I think a fair share of the buden falls on you here (but by no means all), so I'm interested to follow your lead.</p>



<a name="188215795"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215795" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215795">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>and while i do think that the design meetings are well attended (perhaps even better attended than the triage meeting?)</p>



<a name="188215797"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215797" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215797">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:28)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was definitely specifically hoping to iterate on these questions:</p>



<a name="188215825"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215825" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215825">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<ul>
<li>How can we characterize "catastrophic" bugs?</li>
<li>What is the role of the P-medium, P-high, etc labels?</li>
<li>Should we have a standard way to "delegate" bugs to a working group? (like the async-await triage)</li>
<li>What parts of triage can be delegated to a working group, rather than using the "whole team meeting"?</li>
<li>Are there other sorts of triage beyond "preventing catastrophic bugs" we should consider, perhaps through the WG at a different cadence. e.g.,</li>
</ul>



<a name="188215862"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215862" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215862">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:29)</a>:</h4>
<p>(copied from the hackmd)</p>



<a name="188215929"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215929" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215929">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway, if you'd rather hold off until next planning cycle, we can do that. or schedule for later in the cycle (e.g., feb 28) to give time for an e-mail conversation first.</p>



<a name="188215966"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215966" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215966">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'd prefer we host the discussion somewhere public with a record though, like internals</p>



<a name="188215970"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215970" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215970">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p>or zulip :)</p>



<a name="188215994"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188215994" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188215994">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:30)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116009">nikomatsakis</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188215966" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188215966">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I'd prefer we host the discussion somewhere public with a record though, like internals</p>
</blockquote>
<p>ah this is true</p>



<a name="188216026"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216026" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216026">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>(btw, "catastrophic", as phrased, is an exceedingly high bar to meet)</p>



<a name="188216054"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216054" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216054">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>Or maybe low bar</p>



<a name="188216072"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216072" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216072">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>(i.e. is it "easy" to avoid catastrophe?)</p>



<a name="188216089"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216089" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216089">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:31)</a>:</h4>
<p>or maybe that's your point</p>



<a name="188216155"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216155" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216155">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm just saying it sounds very very serious</p>



<a name="188216158"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216158" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216158">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>its a high bar for categorization and thus a low bar for avoidance</p>



<a name="188216181"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216181" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216181">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>(hopefully)</p>



<a name="188216206"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216206" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216206">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>OK, I'd like to reach a decision :)</p>



<a name="188216214"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216214" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216214">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>So maybe I can just ask directly: I think there are T-compiler members missing right now</p>



<a name="188216216"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216216" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216216">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>(not about which word, I'm open to picking other words, catastrophic may indeed be <em>too</em> strong)</p>



<a name="188216225"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216225" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216225">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:32)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g. I don't think <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="119009">@eddyb</span> is here</p>



<a name="188216257"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216257" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216257">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>(and there are others like <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="123586">@nagisa</span> that I think are absent and would be absent from any date we schedule)</p>



<a name="188216298"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216298" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216298">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:33)</a>:</h4>
<p>so the question is: Would it be a catastrophic mistake to schedule the triage meeting now, without their input, and likely at a time that they would not attend?</p>



<a name="188216363"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216363" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216363">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't think so</p>



<a name="188216371"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216371" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216371">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>(I see what you did there :P)</p>



<a name="188216375"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216375" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216375">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>In part because I don't know that they specifically would be heavily participating in the process that results</p>



<a name="188216376"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216376" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216376">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>(i suspect it would not be catastrophic. but that's just me setting low bars for our decision making here)</p>



<a name="188216418"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216418" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216418">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:34)</a>:</h4>
<p>like I think <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="119009">@eddyb</span> tends to be doing more of the "fixing bugs" than "Tracking which bugs need to be fixed" sort of work :)</p>



<a name="188216453"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216453" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216453">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I mean part of this is just "sync discussions are hard", idk.</p>



<a name="188216459"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216459" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216459">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>right. okay. given that viewpoint, I withdraw my suggestion that we delay or use email to get broader input, etc.</p>



<a name="188216479"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216479" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216479">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:35)</a>:</h4>
<p>"it will be fine"</p>



<a name="188216576"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216576" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216576">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:36)</a>:</h4>
<p>So at this point we have two suggestions:</p>
<ul>
<li>Option 1: Triage without Niko, Discuss type system integration on Feb 28, ...</li>
<li>Option 2: XXX without Niko, Triage on Feb 28, ...</li>
</ul>



<a name="188216619"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216619" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216619">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe the question here hinges a bit on type system integration and what that meeting would actually be about</p>



<a name="188216627"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216627" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216627">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:37)</a>:</h4>
<p>I was tempted to close it before this meeting so as to re-open with more details</p>



<a name="188216718"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216718" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216718">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I suspect I could miss the type system integration meeting</p>



<a name="188216741"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216741" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216741">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, so another option would be </p>
<ul>
<li>XXX without Niko, Triage on Feb 28 with everyone, Type System Mar 6 without Felix</li>
</ul>



<a name="188216744"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216744" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216744">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>It would be nice to be there, but I'd prefer to ensure niko is at the triage discussion meeting</p>



<a name="188216772"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216772" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216772">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:38)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think that Mar 6 would probably be "review the roadmap for traits/chalk work"</p>



<a name="188216798"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216798" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216798">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>preparing that roadmap is precisely the sprint task I care the msot about</p>



<a name="188216816"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216816" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216816">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>What about the 21th?</p>



<a name="188216830"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216830" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216830">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>so i'm sort of happy to have some incentive to do it, but it will also take a bit of time</p>



<a name="188216844"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216844" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216844">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p>and I expect to force <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> to rubber duck with me a bit anyway ;)</p>



<a name="188216855"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216855" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216855">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:39)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="126931">centril</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188216816" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188216816">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>What about the 21th?</p>
</blockquote>
<p>that was the "XXX", so presently unassigned</p>



<a name="188216949"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216949" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216949">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>Let's say this then (unless anyone strongly objects):</p>
<ul>
<li>Feb 21 -- TBD, that's what we discuss next</li>
<li>Feb 28 -- Triage</li>
<li>Mar 6 -- Review traits roadmap (no Felix)</li>
</ul>



<a name="188216982"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188216982" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188216982">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:40)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll give 2 minutes for folks to raise objections while Derek and the Dominoes complete this absurdly long drum solo I'm currently listening to (ah the 70s..or whenever they were playing..)</p>



<a name="188217196"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217196" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217196">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>Remaining two topics are:</p>
<ul>
<li>merge llvm.sideeffect change <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177">compiler-team#177</a> (centril, nikomatsakis)</li>
<li>compile time analysis and assistance <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/161" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/161">compiler-team#161</a> (Wesley Wiser)</li>
</ul>
<p>I think <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/161" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/161">compiler-team#161</a> was kind of my baby and (as I said before) I think it's not quite ready, in fact I think I will close, so the real question is -- discuss <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177">compiler-team#177</a>?</p>



<a name="188217262"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217262" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217262">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:42)</a>:</h4>
<p>(Also, the drum solo did actually <em>just end</em> with a burst of the other musicians coming in, very epic timing)</p>



<a name="188217331"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217331" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217331">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'm torn because I sort of like not scheduling every week to give ourselves some time to breathe :) I don't know how we will find answers to those questions that <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> raised though.</p>



<a name="188217350"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217350" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217350">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:43)</a>:</h4>
<p>I don't know that I personally have time before the 21st to prepare an agenda, but I don't know exactly that we need more than my couple questions</p>



<a name="188217471"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217471" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217471">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>I feel like it's pretty clear that there's also a divergence of caring about this soundness hole</p>



<a name="188217472"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217472" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217472">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah, the main thing left to do I would think is to experiment with trying to find ways to reduce the overhead -- and that brings back your question of <em>how much energy do we wish to invest in that</em></p>



<a name="188217478"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217478" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217478">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:44)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116122">simulacrum</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188217471" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188217471">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I feel like it's pretty clear that there's also a divergence of caring about this soundness hole</p>
</blockquote>
<p>agreed :)</p>



<a name="188217516"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217516" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217516">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>(which feeds into the energy question)</p>



<a name="188217522"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217522" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217522">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:45)</a>:</h4>
<p>I honestly don't know how much I care about this hole in particular.</p>



<a name="188217668"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217668" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217668">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think we'd all like it resolved; its just a question of how much we're each willing to pay (in compile-time, right? That's the main cost we've identified, not end performance of executable, right?)</p>



<a name="188217678"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217678" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217678">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me feels strongly that we have a global safety promise, and that should come before compile times (which we have promised nothing about).</p>



<a name="188217685"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217685" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217685">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:46)</a>:</h4>
<p>I will say that I also don't know that I care much, beyond giving people a way to do infinite loops (e.g. for panic handling or whatever) that doesn't cause UB. But even there I don't care <em>that</em> much</p>



<a name="188217748"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217748" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217748">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention silent" data-user-id="116083">pnkfelix</span> <a href="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188217668" title="#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14/near/188217668">said</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think we'd all like it resolved; its just a question of how much we're each willing to pay (in compile-time, right? That's the main cost we've identified, not end performance of executable, right?)</p>
</blockquote>
<p>correct -- I guess that's a question. I assumed this was making the compiler run more slowly, but is it just making LLVM take longer? (i.e., more LLVM bitcode?)</p>



<a name="188217778"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217778" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217778">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>It's all llvm</p>



<a name="188217797"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217797" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217797">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>Compiler barely does anything</p>



<a name="188217802"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217802" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217802">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>clearly we just need to move to cranelift.</p>



<a name="188217822"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217822" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217822">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:47)</a>:</h4>
<p>ok ok that's interesting</p>



<a name="188217931"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217931" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217931">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>(next thing you know, <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="133247">@bjorn3</span> will be telling us that cranelift <em>also</em> defines infinite loops as UB)</p>



<a name="188217948"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217948" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> bjorn3 <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217948">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:48)</a>:</h4>
<p>Nope, not that I know of</p>



<a name="188217973"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217973" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217973">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>Well, let's try to reach a discussion. I won't be here if we do discuss it. It seems like there's something of a "values debate" at play here. </p>
<p>I wonder if one action we could take instead is:</p>
<ul>
<li>Write up an intorust post explaining the problem, showing the impact of the solution, and kind of asking for help?</li>
</ul>
<p>i.e., is there someone interested in exploring more advanced ways to limit the "extra bitcode" we wind up making?</p>



<a name="188217991"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188217991" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> bjorn3 <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188217991">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p><a href="https://cranelift.readthedocs.io/en/latest/compare-llvm.html#undefined-behavior" target="_blank" title="https://cranelift.readthedocs.io/en/latest/compare-llvm.html#undefined-behavior">https://cranelift.readthedocs.io/en/latest/compare-llvm.html#undefined-behavior</a></p>



<a name="188218039"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218039" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218039">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:49)</a>:</h4>
<p>(but of course somebody would have to write it)</p>



<a name="188218163"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218163" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218163">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>More advanced ways require either global analysis or something like it I think. Not sure. Pretty much doing anything via side effect is going to have a high cost I think, if we aim for a 100% solution</p>



<a name="188218180"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218180" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218180">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think a post like that is a better first step than jumping straight to a design meeting</p>



<a name="188218196"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218196" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218196">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>I may have enough time to write such a post, though I do not have time to evaluate feedback much I think</p>



<a name="188218201"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218201" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218201">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>especially since I don't think anyone present has the resources to throw at this problem</p>



<a name="188218211"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218211" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218211">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:51)</a>:</h4>
<p>So maybe asking for help is not quite right :)</p>



<a name="188218254"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218254" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218254">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>(and without resourcing, I think a design meeting is premature)</p>



<a name="188218260"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218260" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218260">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>maybe we don't do that part quite</p>



<a name="188218277"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218277" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218277">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>I think it'd be useful just document what's been tried</p>



<a name="188218301"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218301" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218301">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>Anyway, let's make a goal of getting that post written and we can revisit next planning meeting</p>



<a name="188218326"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218326" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218326">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:52)</a>:</h4>
<p>I will draft an initial version</p>



<a name="188218366"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218366" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218366">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>that works for me.</p>



<a name="188218391"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218391" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218391">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:53)</a>:</h4>
<p>Is anyone opposed?</p>



<a name="188218517"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218517" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> centril <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218517">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:54)</a>:</h4>
<p>/me has to run; the post seems fine; ciao</p>



<a name="188218571"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218571" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218571">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>okay great so this means we won't have a friday meeting next week, right?</p>



<a name="188218586"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218586" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218586">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>correct</p>



<a name="188218610"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218610" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218610">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>thanks <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> for volunteering to write the post</p>



<a name="188218616"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218616" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218616">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>I wonder if we can prompt LLVM to offer us something</p>



<a name="188218620"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218620" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218620">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:55)</a>:</h4>
<p>:)</p>



<a name="188218729"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218729" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218729">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<blockquote>
<p>This is likely due to generating tons of side effect calls (at least one per function entry), which LLVM today also does not collapse into one after inlining. That generates horribly bloated IR, likely slowing down LLVM passes: <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/68402" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/68402">rust-lang/rust#68402</a> (comment).</p>
</blockquote>
<p>if indeed that is true, you could imagine some kind of "collapsable side-effect marker" or something</p>



<a name="188218744"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218744" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218744">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>that might not even be so horribly complex for them</p>



<a name="188218812"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218812" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218812">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:56)</a>:</h4>
<p>Maybe though it's unclear that would solve the problem :)</p>
<p>Maybe it would. I know nothing of llvm myself</p>



<a name="188218821"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218821" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218821">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>Yeah I don't know either :)</p>



<a name="188218822"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218822" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> bjorn3 <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218822">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>How hard would it to convince the LLVM devs to not treat infinite loops as UB, but only when a certain setting is enables? That way LLVM can still optimize infinite loops in C code without problems.</p>



<a name="188218829"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218829" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218829">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>very hard</p>



<a name="188218841"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218841" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218841">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>but</p>



<a name="188218882"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218882" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218882">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>That has been under discussion within llvm for years now I think and without major progress</p>



<a name="188218890"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218890" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218890">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>well, to be clear, IANAL -- I am not an llvm hacker :) --</p>



<a name="188218912"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218912" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218912">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:57)</a>:</h4>
<p>but I think that the idea of a global switch is hard for them beacuse, in short, they don't know where the assumptions are baked in, and it's a global audit, etc</p>



<a name="188218965"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218965" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218965">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p><em>but</em> those optimizations <em>do</em> have to account for side-effects from inline asm already etc</p>



<a name="188218968"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218968" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218968">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>Or at least that's my impression from comments by rkruppe(?)</p>



<a name="188218982"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218982" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> pnkfelix <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218982">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>e.g. <a href="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2015-July/088095.html" target="_blank" title="http://lists.llvm.org/pipermail/llvm-dev/2015-July/088095.html">discussion amongst llvm devs</a></p>



<a name="188218991"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188218991" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188218991">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>so I'm not sure if they've considered the idea of "compilers flip that switch not in global configuration but by adding some kind of lightweight side-effect thing"</p>



<a name="188219023"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219023" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219023">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p>but yeah I'm really just totally speculating here</p>



<a name="188219028"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219028" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219028">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:58)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="124289">@Hanna Kruppe</span> would be a much more knowledable source</p>



<a name="188219049"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219049" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> bjorn3 <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219049">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>Ok, thanks.</p>



<a name="188219064"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219064" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219064">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>I guess in particular <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> your post might enable us to go to the LLVM devs and say</p>



<a name="188219079"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219079" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219079">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>"why do YOU think this is slower? do you think you have ideas on how we could do something like this that <em>woudln't</em> be slower?"</p>



<a name="188219095"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219095" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219095">(Feb 14 2020 at 15:59)</a>:</h4>
<p>Makes sense yeah</p>



<a name="188219121"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219121" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219121">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>i.e., not a "help us internet!" but a more targeted appeal :)</p>



<a name="188219172"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219172" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219172">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>anyway great!</p>



<a name="188219184"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219184" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219184">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>I'll go setup the calendar invites and things</p>



<a name="188219186"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219186" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> simulacrum <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219186">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>Okay, well, we're at time, but I think we achieved what we wantee</p>



<a name="188219194"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219194" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219194">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>thanks all for a productive meeting</p>



<a name="188219240"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219240" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219240">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:00)</a>:</h4>
<p>plus Derek and the Dominoes just finished their set</p>



<a name="188219474"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219474" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219474">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:02)</a>:</h4>
<h1>FINAL SCHEDULE</h1>
<ul>
<li>Feb 21 -- <strong>nothing</strong></li>
<li>Feb 28 --  Focused and efficient triage <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/247" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/issues/247">#247</a>, <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/247" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/247">compiler-team#247</a></li>
<li>Mar 6 --  design of the chalk-ty library,  <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/234" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/234">compiler-team#234</a></li>
</ul>



<a name="188219509"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188219509" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188219509">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:03)</a>:</h4>
<h1>ALSO RESOLVED</h1>
<ul>
<li><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116122">@simulacrum</span> will work on a draft for the side-effects change <a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177">compiler-team#177</a> (<a href="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177#issuecomment-586353115" target="_blank" title="https://github.com/rust-lang/compiler-team/issues/177#issuecomment-586353115">comment</a>)</li>
</ul>



<a name="188220655"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188220655" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nagisa <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188220655">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:14)</a>:</h4>
<p><span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116083">@pnkfelix</span> <span class="user-mention" data-user-id="116009">@nikomatsakis</span> ~this time is usually when I begin preparing some dinner, walking dog etc. so I generally tend to miss the meetings by very slightly. But I do echo the sentiment that whatever time is picked for a sync meeting, _somebody_ is likely to be missing it routinely. I would generally be much better about making myself available for the less… optional… sync-ups.</p>



<a name="188221304"></a>
<h4><a href="https://rust-lang.zulipchat.com#narrow/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning%20meeting%202020.02.14/near/188221304" class="zl"><img src="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/assets/img/zulip.svg" alt="view this post on Zulip" style="width:20px;height:20px;"></a> nikomatsakis <a href="https://rust-lang.github.io/zulip_archive/stream/131828-t-compiler/topic/planning.20meeting.202020.2E02.2E14.html#188221304">(Feb 14 2020 at 16:21)</a>:</h4>
<p>I created calendar invites for the two meetings. I also invited various people that seemed appropriate -- the meetings are public, but it's sometimes helpful to have an invitation for your calendar. If you'd like me to invite you to any of the events, ping me.</p>



<hr><p>Last updated: Aug 07 2021 at 22:04 UTC</p>
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